Member Spotlight Transcript: Kerry Donahue & Jake Shapiro

Geo Beach: Hello, and welcome to the Third Program of the Third Season -- the 28th Edition -- of the AIR Member Spotlight, public radio's monthly online forum.

Our Guests this evening are Kerry Donahue of Audible.com and Jake Shapiro of PRX - Public Radio eXchange.

And I'm your host, Geo Beach.

We have some background information about Audible.com and PRX.org on the AIR website: http://airmedia.org/spotlight/index.php

There's some biographical information about Kerry at: http://airmedia.org/spotlight/bios/kerry_donahue.php

And about Jake at: http://airmedia.org/spotlight/bios/jake_shapiro.php

If you want to know something more about me, there's a quick bio at: http://airmedia.org/spotlight/bios/geo_beach.php

Let me pour a cup of, in the inimitable words of Capt Jean-Luc Picard, "tea, hot, Earl Gray" -- and get started.

Our Guests tonight are old pros, and old pros in the AIR Spotlight. Kerry has been a Host this past year, and now slides over into the Guest chair. And Jake returns for a rare second appearance in the Spotlight.

Kerry and Jake -- welcome!

Jake Shapiro: Thanks!

Kerry Donahue: Thanks, Geo! Hi everyone.

Geo Beach: Let's start by getting some basic background on the audio organizations you both work with. Kerry, would you give us an overview of Audible.com first.

Kerry Donahue: Sure. In an nutshell, Audible is the leading provider of spoken word audio on the Internet -- everything from audiobooks to audio versions of newspapers and magazines to radio shows, lectures, speeches, etc.

Audible was founded in 1995 and the site went live in 1997. We now have more than 420,000 customers who have come to purchase spoken word content from Audible, and in October 2003 we began a relationship with the Apple iTunes music store where we are the provider of spoken word audio to iTunes.

Geo Beach: Great, Kerry -- thanks. Folks can explore fully at http://www.Audible.com/

Jake, now to you -- a broad overview of PRX, if you would. The URL is http://www.PRX.org/

Jake Shapiro: Oh boy. Well, I didn't do the usual pre-chat text pasting, so warming up my fingers, I'll keep it short to get to some discussion. We've been up and running for about 15 months at PRX.org.

It's a collaboration of the Station Resource Group and Atlantic Public Media, two excellent organizations also worth learning about.

Geo Beach: http://www.srg.org/ and http://www.atlantic.org/

Jake Shapiro: Our focus is on creating new distribution opportunities for Indies and stations in public radio and beyond, using the web to connect us in ways that the existing architecture of public radio was not supporting, and attempting at the same time to create a new economy around horizontal distribution between stations and producers.

I should point out we just posted some numbers for 2004 on our site that give a sense of what has been selling and the extent of activity on PRX. Check out the zeitfunk!

Steve Schultze: That's at: http://about.PRX.org/zeitfunk/

Geo Beach: It's evident that Audible.com represents a new delivery platform -- audio on "MyTime". And PRX.org is a brand-new distribution method. Both are of great interest to AIR members and the broad public radio community.

But we're especially excited to have you both here together tonight, because you've tipped us off that there's a new collaborative effort between Audible and PRX.

Kerry, would you give us an outline that Jake can then add to?

Kerry Donahue: Sure. We are really excited about this new partnership. >From the beginning Audible has wanted to be a spoken word company and that definitely includes Indies. We established early relationships with several radio programs and Indies such as Dave Isay, Joe Richman, Jay Allison, Harriet Baskas, Tony Kahn, etc., and now, with the partnership with PRX, it should make it easier both for producers and for Audible to get great programs/pieces into Audible.

Producers will be able, as part of their agreement with PRX, to make their work eligible to be available at Audible and subsequently at iTunes, which is a good point for Jake to chime in.

Geo Beach: Jake, can you give us some pertinent details about how PRX will work with Audible.com from your perspective.

Jake Shapiro: Sure. We're at the early stages of this and we're excited about the possibilities. The basic idea is that PRX can help pass through a lot of pieces that are currently available on PRX, and they will then be available for commercial download from Audible and iTunes. We'll pass back the royalties to producers and hopefully start introducing a whole bunch of new stuff into this channel.

Producers will have to opt-in. It's not an automatic thing, and some have their own deals or reasons not to participate, but our hope and goal is to give an opportunity to Indies and stations that might not otherwise have had access to this kind of service, or who are just now ready to take advantage of it.

Kerry Donahue: Ideally, it will take your work beyond the radio dial.

Geo Beach: Great, Jake and Kerry!

We'd like to welcome our many friends in the room tonight from Public Radio eXchange and from Atlantic Public Media! And perhaps from Audible and Station Resource Group -- I'm not familiar with all the names.

Jake Shapiro: Our gang is Brendan Greeley, Seth Fitzsimmons, Steve Schultz, and Jones Franzel from PRX. And Atlantic's Jay Allison of course, co-founder and all.

Steve Schultze: Cheers, all!

Geo Beach: I'd like to go ahead and open the floor to some initial questions as we think about the implications of this partnership.

Questions on Audible.com and PRX as entities? Or on the new Audible-PRX relationship.

Maureen Jackson: Yes, I have a few. Can you opt-in for iTunes at anytime?

Kerry Donahue: Well, if you opt-in and your work is selected to go to Audible, it will also go to iTunes, unless there's a specific reason for it not too, if that's what you mean. You will be able to opt-in at any time.

Maureen Jackson: Also, if PRX is tracking the royalties, are these pages dynamically being displayed on iTunes through PRX?

Jake Shapiro: Audible will track royalties, and has its own deal with iTunes. PRX will be passing through royalties to producers. Not sure what you mean about the dynamic pages.

Kerry Donahue: The audio will be served from Audible servers, not PRX, if that's what you mean.

Jake Shapiro: Yes, we'll be passing along the audio file(s) and related data & materials to Audible.

Kerry Donahue: Audible has a digital rights management system, so we encode the audio and encrypt it with our system and will be able to track purchases both at Audible and iTunes, which will be reported back to PRX and then to producers.

Maureen Jackson: Thanks, Kerri and Jake.

Jake Shapiro: It's important to note that opting-in doesn't guarantee that Audible will pick up a given piece. In other words, it's not as if everything on PRX will just transfer over to Audible if everyone opts in. And there are interesting questions about what makes for a good Audible piece, vs what's a good radio piece.

Kerry Donahue: Yes, especially as we begin this relationship, there's only so much audio that Audible can take in at any one time -- so it's not possible to take it "all at once" if you will.

Geo Beach: Kerry, tell us some more about what kind of audio content Audible is most interested in.

Kerry Donahue: Well, at least in the beginning, I think that longer pieces, 30 minutes or more, will do better. Longer content generally has done better for lots of reasons. We are starting to see that shift a bit, but it's slow.

Geo Beach: I know John Barth previously worked with original content -- is that your gig now too?

Kerry Donahue: I work with all of Audible's radio material and I'm a producer of original content. John Barth was the head of the original programming department when I started, and now he's at PRX.

Geo Beach: How do Audible customers use the audio they get from you?

Kerry Donahue: Audible customers use the audio primarily to download to a device such as an iPod or a palm device.

Geo Beach: What are they doing when they listen from their playback device, do you know?

Kerry Donahue: They play the audio in their cars, when they are walking, exercising, going to bed, whenever. Anytime you'd listen to a iPod (or whatever device) you can listen to Audible. Most people say they listen during their commute.

Geo Beach: Kerry, before this relationship with PRX, where and how did Audible.com acquire audio?

Kerry Donahue: We have direct relationships with lots and lots of content providers -- from the biggest publishing houses to small production studios with only a handful of books. So, that's all direct deals with producers. We take in audio in every manner that's currently available -- satellite, FTP, CD, cassette, DAT, etc.

Jay Allison: Kerry, Audible has a strong history with public radio programs and producers. Isn't "This American Life" one of your most popular subscriptions?

Kerry Donahue: Yes, it's one of the best selling programs, hands-down. I'm always so happy about that fact because I really believe that public radio programs are getting in front of (1) folks who might not listen to public radio regularly, and (2) folks who love a particular show but can't catch it every week.

Jonathan Mitchell: How much money does content cost the end user, and how much of that does the producer see (per download)?

Kerry Donahue: The price of content on Audible varies -- we typically offer content at about 70% of list when that's applicable (which is not always the case for radio) and our payments to providers are a royalty payment, the amount of which varies pretty greatly. The good news is that we have seen payouts to content providers really go up as the number of users expands.

Also, and I hope this isn't too much info, but everything at Audible can be purchased either a la carte (as an individual purchase) or as part of an Audible listener membership program, so there are various ways to buy and consume content.

Geo Beach: More for Kerry about Audible.com and about the Audible side of PRX+Audible.com?

Maureen Jackson: I have a question. Does Audible see the personal recording technology (ie TiVo for Public radio or audio) as a threat to its business?

Kerry Donahue: I guess it's sort of a yes/no situation. I think that the TiVo for radio devices that are just starting to be out there can replicate some of the experience. In the end, I think people will chose what's easiest to use and most reliable, so if you like to rent videos as well as record on your VCR, you might buy radio content from Audible and record some -- that kind of thing. Audible's been doing this a long time, relatively, so while there are some new companies out there, we are really building and growing.

Maureen Jackson: Thanks.

Geo Beach: More from the floor? Please, chime in or ask away.

Jonathan Mitchell: How will Audible choose it's content from PRX? What qualities are you looking for?

Amy Coombs: How does Audible choose which stories and shows are selected from PRX? I mean -- how will you select stories?

Kerry Donahue: It's going to be a joint process with PRX.

Jake Shapiro: And it's something we're just now defining.

Amy Coombs: So will there be someone from each group that sits down and reviews material? Or will there be some kind of criteria posted? Will there be any Independents involved in defining this process?

Jake Shapiro: The first step is that producers have to choose to be involved by opting in.

Kerry Donahue: Actually, by making their audio available, Independents will be very involved in the process.

Jake Shapiro: And Audible has a lot of experience with what sells well and what their users are interested in.

Kerry Donahue: One thing that's different about the web vs radio is that audio that also has an image and good copy will have a leg up over something without those elements.

Geo Beach: What do you mean by "image" and "copy", Kerry?

Kerry Donahue: An image is just some sort of picture or image that goes with the program -- even just the title, and copy is just descriptive copy.

Amy Coombs: Right -- but by opting in, you might not get your work selected. I think it's a great idea, but I hope new and experimental works don't get shafted like they usually do.

Kerry Donahue: Well, there's no intention of slighting any category of work.

Jake Shapiro: The PRX editorial board and the peer review process will also be put to use for helping select work, and Independents have a direct voice there as well.

Geo Beach: And actually, Amy, as we've seen in the top-licensed PRX pieces, AIR producers hold a number of the Top-15 slots.

Jake Shapiro: And that's with *stations* as "customers" for that Top-15. There are other audiences, niches that Audible reaches, that might help surface other work that isn't always finding a home on stations.

Geo Beach: That's a good point, Jake, and it's something that should be of interest to producers -- the NON-broadcast audio platforms.

Steve Schultze: That 15-most-licensed is here: http://about.PRX.org/archives/000067.php

Brendan Greeley: And even if you take the fifteen-most-licensed single pieces list from PRX -- again, stations as customers -- the single-most licensed piece was from an Independent, Annie Wu. http://www.PRX.org/for_stations.do?articleId=36

Amy Coombs: I think PRX is a great resource for Indies.

Jessica Lockhart: Why wouldn't an Indie opt in?

Kerry Donahue: Jessica, I think an Indie might have some obligations to funders or to other distributors that might prevent them. And on a bigger level, Audible and iTunes are commercial environments so that might cause some concern (for whatever reason).

Jake Shapiro: I'd love to see an AIR member rival TAL's spot as a most-downloaded show on Audible.

Amy Coombs: So Jake -- can you say a little about how your editorial board and peer review process are structured?

Jake Shapiro: Well, the review process is wide open. Anyone can register as a member on the site to review pieces. The editorial board is meant to lead that process and represent a diverse group of mostly public radio professionals who are "on call" to review a bunch of pieces every month. The first goal is to give stations some context about the pieces they are browsing and searching for, otherwise you have an overwhelming catalogue of work to sift through. In a sense it's giving word-of-mouth a persistent forum in public radio.

Amy Coombs: Is your list of reviewers public?

Jake Shapiro: Yes, the list is on the site.

Geo Beach: Editorial Board = http://www.PRX.org/for_stations.do?articleId=27

Jake Shapiro: The editorial board is a rotating roster of folks, so we hope to get a broad group of people over time.

Another goal of reviewing is the feedback for producers, which has proven to be really valuable and mostly missing from public radio as a whole. It's served some mentoring/training needs as well. Although that is really not its main goal, we've been thinking about how to build it better to allow for that.

Amy Coombs: That's great.

Jake Shapiro: I should point out that Geo and Dmae are on currently on the editorial board doing some excellent reviewing you should check out.

Jones Franzel: On the mentoring front, there's a youth editorial board that will be launching next week -- a group of youth producers who will highlight youth produced pieces.

Jonathan Mitchell: Does PRX get a piece of the royalties from content airing on Audible that comes from its website?

Jake Shapiro: We will take a cut of royalties. All the numbers haven't been finalized, but we intend to pass the lion's share on to producers. And in a larger sense it benefits PRX to provide valuable services that bring good producers to use PRX. We intend to pay producers an initial acquisition fee for every piece passed to Audible, and then royalties for any sales.

Geo Beach: Halfway into the AIR Member Spotlight, public radio's monthly online forum. Crack your knuckles Kerry & Jake -- and fire up your dreams and questions in the room.

Jay Allison: One thing I like about the Audible/PRX connection is that if your work is picked up, it appears in iTunes. It's nice to be able to send people to iTunes, have them search on your name, and then buy your stuff. Presto.

Geo Beach: Good point, Jay.

Kerry Donahue: Yes, Jay, the iTunes angle is pretty fun, I have to say -- I'm a big fan.

Geo Beach: One of the things I think we need to emphasize to the AIR membership is that there's lots more than just public radio out there: commercial "neo-radio", audio-over-cableTV-systems, satellite radio, internet audio streams, and audio to personal devices -- I'm not sure the evolving nomenclature there.

Kerry Donahue: Great point, Geo. I think tonight's discussion can also include some general discussion of what else is out there for distribution options. Everything's been shifting so much.

Geo Beach: There's a very interesting article headlining Current.org right now.
http://www.current.org/tech/tech0421mytime.shtml

It's entitled "MyTime" -- Commentary by Dennis L. Haarsager:

"[L]listeners increasingly consume programming on what might be called My Time -- that is, whenever they choose.

"My Time is marked by new trade names like Audible that provide media experiences to consumers at their convenience.

"A few pubcasters including Public Radio Exchange are syndicating text and audio on the Web via RSS feeds that alert listeners to programming they might like.

"My Time distribution platform will need access to the whole range of sophisticated support systems that Amazon, for example, has refined -- search, recommendation, reputation and digital rights management technologies. It can also exploit technologies such as RSS and perhaps hook up with commercial partners such as Audible.

"Podcasting -- audio file players -- is simply an RSS feed with an attachment such as an MP3 audio file. Readers for "podcasts" are available that check for new files, download the MP3, even save it to your player -- all automatically. Most other readers support downloading enclosures manually. Podcasting began only in September, but as of this writing PRX is already doing it."

Kerry Donahue: I really enjoyed that "My Time" article. It's a good read, if you haven't had a chance to check it out yet.

Steve Schultze: What I like about Haarsager's article is that he highlights perhaps the most significant dichotomy that digital distribution disrupts -- on-demand vs. scheduled realtime. In the same way that public broadcasting has spent some real effort sorting out exactly what "online" means as an *alternative* medium, I think that we need to seriously consider how digital distribution can become a *primary* medium for listeners who operate on what he calls "My Time".

In a way, our Spotlight discussion here is a great example of something that starts in realtime but exhibits a more powerful "long tail" over time as people discover it.

PRX has sort of come into this backwards, because we focused on ways to enhance the traditional over-the-air channel through digital tools and now are turning those tools toward non-realtime channels too.

Jake Shapiro: After all, not everyone has 2 hours on a 2-Tues night!

Steve Schultze: Exactly.

Geo Beach: Yeah, the "long tale" part of the article, partially lifted from "Wired" magazine, is crucial. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.10/tail.html

Steve Schultze: Worthwhile reading on Podcasting generally and how it relates broadcast media is Ray Edwards' very brief "Why Podcasting Matters to Radio" http://www.radioxfactor.com/2004/11/podcasting_univ.html and of course Tod Maffin's "How Podcasting Will Save Radio" article on the AIR site http://www.radiocollege.org/readingroom/articles/tech/podcasting.php

Kerry Donahue: And I'll chime in and say that Audible is currently figuring out podcasting options and RSS feeds and the like.

Jake Shapiro: Maybe something we can do together too.

Kerry Donahue: There are lots of new developments, but the heart of it all is people getting what they want sent to them, and their being able to listen whenever they want.

Geo Beach: Surely the Balkanization of audio hurts Indies and listeners both, and as those walls are erased, the CONTENT can take it's rightful place -- foremost.

Dmae Roberts: Hi Jake. I have a rather long question. As much as I love PRX, I wonder how much producers can really expect regarding licenses. How much did the Top-15 producers actually make in licensing fees? I'm still frustrated that I have over four hours of material and have received at most $80 in fees last year. What can be done to market PRX more to stations so that it's used more and producers can not only get distribution but increase sales? Also, what can be done to market to general audio?

Jake Shapiro: We'd love nothing more than to have more and more stations licensing from PRX and get those fees up. And it's something producers can help us do, by using PRX and helping market to stations. We're still in the early days of PRX and have introduced a lot of new ideas at once in a system where change isn't exactly "embraced".

Kerry Donahue: And producers who have work on Audible can do their part by sending listeners to Audible to hear the work.

The fees will grow -- it just takes time. We've seen that happen at Audible. We see royalty payments going up bit by bit, quarter over quarter. It's slow and steady, but it does grow.

Brendan Greeley: And one of the ideas behind our cooperation with Audible is that, now that we have this collection of Independent work in one place and searchable, who else is interested in paying to listen to it?

Jake Shapiro: All told, we paid out over $30,000 to PRX members for 2004, and almost all of that is money that otherwise wouldn't have changed hands at all.

Jessica Lockhart: Kerry, you mentioned that longer pieces are more popular now, but what kind of piece might be more attractive to Audible?

Kerry Donahue: That's a really good question, Jessica. PRX and Audible are really going to have to think about it and probably try different things.

Geo Beach: Perhaps Dmae's work -- often in longer format -- would have more appeal to Audible.com clients than to public radio PDs?

Kerry Donahue: Yes, it's that kind of question which will be interesting to see play out.

Jake Shapiro: Could be, although I'm sure we'd all like both to work.

Jonathan Mitchell: It seems like being on sites like Audible and PRX is a form of marketing in itself, and the distribution systems need to be designed to maximize their effectiveness in that role. How are you designing your distribution system to work better towards clearly presenting options to the people who buy content?

Jake Shapiro: For PRX, the critical audience is stations, and we're working on a variety of improvements to the site. For version 2.0, that will help give station PDs and others better ways to find what they are looking for and introduce them to new work they might not otherwise have known about.

Kathy Gronau: We have several shows that we are promoting on PRX and some stations are thrilled about getting it that way. It's so easy, but some stations haven't heard about it yet. Ultimately, PRX should be easier than making sure that stations record programs from the satellite without having the SOSS freeze.

Geo Beach: Kathy, your Creative Publicity promotes a wide variety of great public radio content -- that's a super testimonial from you!

Brendan Greeley: We're also working on targeting different station formats with different material. For example, making sure that all AAA stations on PRX are aware of the artist interviews that David Schulman produces.

Jake Shapiro: We will be giving producers better ways to promote using their work on PRX. Everyone has a direct link to their piece and personal profile, and the reviews can make for great pull quotes on marketing materials. And if a producer gets a piece on Audible/iTunes, we want to help them link/promote that as well.

Brendan Greeley: Barrett Golding (((Hearing Voices))) has pointed out to us that he is beginning to use quotes from PRX reviews in his own marketing material. We welcome this, and are going to work with marketers to make this as easy as possible.

Kerry Donahue: Yes, and Audible wants to help with that -- from lots of experience I can tell you that the promotion that all content providers at Audible can do really, really helps - it is SO essential for any work to be successful.

Steve Schultze: And people have posted to the AIR list asking for reviews and feedback. Which works!

Kathy Gronau: Yes, we have used the reviews for Barrett's shows in marketing them. They are great.

Matthew D. Payne: Murray Street Productions has also made use of reviews for some of our newer shows.

Jake Shapiro: Of course, not all reviews are positive, and it's having an open review system that helps stations trust PRX as a source for recommendations.

Geo Beach: There was a question that came up earlier about opting-OUT of Audible.com/iTunes because they represent COMMERCIAL ventures. Is there anyone in the room who would NOT want their work to get into listener ears because it went through a "for-profit" conduit?

Jessica Lockhart: I'd be okay with the commercial distribution.

Jones Franzel: Speaking from a youth-radio perspective, there may be legality issues with youth producers.

Geo Beach: Good point, Jones.

Kathy Gronau: Would the producer of a show that has music have to pay if their show is on Audible.com/iTunes?

Kerry Donahue: I can take the music rights question -- I can tell you that we won't be able to do any programs for a while that are primarily music based -- too difficult with rights. For interstitial music  no, a producer would not have to pay for rights -- that will be worked out with PRX and Audible.

Geo Beach: Kerry, how much of Audible business is spoken word vs music?

Kerry Donahue: Audible doesn't do music, just spoken word.

Jake Shapiro: And PRX doesn't do music either, at least not stand-alone musical works. The rights issues are indeed a headache, and in general producers should aim for clearing all uses for work they incorporate into their pieces, for both public radio distribution and beyond.

Kerry Donahue: Frankly, the music rights are still very tricky on the web.

Jessica Lockhart: So the iTunes connection is interesting -- aren't they all music?

Kerry Donahue: It definitely is the iTunes MUSIC store, but Apple realizes that people who listen to music might also enjoy This American Life or the new John Grisham, so they did a deal with Audible to get that content in their store.

Jake Shapiro: If you go to the iTunes store you'll see a separate section for spoken word.

Geo Beach: http://www.apple.com/itunes/store/books/

"Check out the well-stocked library of best-selling audiobooks -- 9,000 titles and counting -- on the iTunes Music Store. Enjoy nail-biting suspense, action-packed thrillers, gripping mysteries, side-splitting comedies, self-help books,
newspapers, public radio programs and more."

Jake Shapiro: So welcome to the "...and more" part of iTunes!

Jay Allison: Producers would need to get the appropriate rights to make their work available via Audible/iTunes. If you've told an interviewee they're only going on public radio, then you may have a problem. That would be a reason for opting out.

Kerry Donahue: Exactly. More and more, I'd really recommend producers leave options open for distribution when getting rights from interview subjects. Already, most people need to get streaming rights for station websites, and the option to make audio available via download is just an extension of this. But you want flexibility and often times people will grant it.

Geo Beach: So there are some implications of this partnership in how Indies conduct business. If they're interested in broadening their market and audience.

Jake Shapiro: Absolutely. And we urge everyone to use all means at their disposal to get their work out, find its audience, and build a career.

Geo Beach: We're rolling into the final half-hour of the Spotlight forum, and I urge everyone to participate on specifics AND on broader issues, theories, and philosophies.

Susan McCormick: Assuming that all of the rights issues for music and from interviewees are dealt with, I wonder if it might be necessary to opt out depending on initial funding sources -- for instance a commitment to public dissemination of a work.

Jake Shapiro: That's possible. Although opting-in does not prevent the producer from continuing to distribute the work on PRX and elsewhere.

Kerry Donahue: If it's a mission statement thing to reach more people, then Audible and iTunes can easily be interpreted to be part of that mission. But if, for instance, a producer shares distribution rights with PRI or APM or NPR, then the producer might not have full clearance to "Give" rights to Audible or iTunes.

Dan Hirschi: I was just planning on lurking, but I guess I'll chime in as a PD (WETS-FM). This is probably the best thing for Independent producers. I find that we need a very consistent program schedule. I am very reluctant to air specials -- it's hard for a listener to make a radio appointment for a special. When we did air a few, I got complaints for pre-empting a regular programs. This is great because producers should not have to go through me or any other gatekeeper PD's to have their work heard.

Geo Beach: Thanks, Dan! There's an interesting quote in the MyTime article we've been discussing:

"We often put local productions on a back shelf after they've aired, even though they're a significant part of our mission.

"Some stations are already reporting that some programs have been seen by more people online than when they were broadcast."

Think about that: MORE online than when BROADCAST.

Jake Shapiro: I should point out that stations are producers too on PRX, and can contribute work for all of the above -- particularly interesting for smaller stations that aren't necessarily "national" producers. We are also hoping that stations will use PRX pieces online, which solves the shelf-space problem. Currently most PRX pieces are available for both broadcast and internet use -- and that's something we're seeing more interest in.

Brendan Greeley: Here are 2004's most-licensed stations http://about.PRX.org/archives/000072.php

Geo Beach: HD Radio holds the prospect of increasing a PD's options, but inevitably, realtime is limited. As one of my old GMs said, "Time is God's way of keeping everything from happening at once."

Jake Shapiro: If HD Radio comes along with a secondary audio channel there may be more opportunities for new formats, new voices.

So Dan, maybe you could put that special on your station's website and promote it on-air. Then listeners get the best of both worlds.

Geo Beach: Ah -- new creations!

What do you think as a PD, Dan?

Dan Hirschi: We've done a couple of small, local productions on our web site. I'm not opposed to it, but so far our hits were small.

Kathy Gronau: What are the logistics for getting a show from PRX to Audible.com/iTunes?

Jake Shapiro: Kathy, we take care of that on our end, which is convenient for all involved. Since we have the high-quality version of the piece and the metadata from the producer, we will be asking producers to make sure the info is complete and we'll find out from Audible if there are other requirements.

Kerry Donahue: Yes, I'm anticipating that most of the material Audible will need will already be on PRX.

Geo Beach: Kathy, as a marketer, what are you finding about stations' relations with PRX?

Kathy Gronau: I think PRX is a marketplace, at the moment, where people can comment about work and it raises the interest in Independent programs.

Geo Beach: Does it help, when you're promoting a program, to say, "You can listen to it on PRX right now"?

Kathy Gronau: PRX is good for producers to provide a place to listen and to download the shows. It is also cool that it is the new hip delivery system.

Jake Shapiro: Better than a hip replacement system!

Dan, regarding the station website, it seems like something that PRX could help with more directly, by providing a module of new pieces on a regular basis.

Dan Hirschi: I might be interested, but to start, the modules would have to fit in with our regular programming. There's too much material to put it all on our site.

Jake Shapiro: Yep, I can imagine. We're starting to talk to more stations about how to use the web for these kinds of things. And there will be some more conversations about that at the upcoming IMA conference at the end of this month.

Geo Beach: I think AIR's Maureen Jackson will be at IMA to check out some of those things for us, Jake.

Maureen Jackson: As mentioned in this discussion, there is a lot of talk of new formats and styles. Have you seen any new formats that are attractive/appealing to you? Have either PRX or Audible received any content which might be in a similar style/voice of Curb Your Enthusiasm/The Office/Seinfeld, where the creator is the central character and based on a recorded nugget of something that occurs in their day-to-day life, characters created and built around it?

Jake Shapiro: Check out Ben Walker's "Theory of Everything". "invisible ink". Some of b-side radio. There's a bunch of emerging talent out there that public radio should embrace, and that Audible will probably jump on too. Perhaps the
iTunes/Audible audience will help identify a new voice that public radio can then recruit as well.

Kerry Donahue: I can say one piece of audio Audible has that I thought was really interesting is the SoundWalk series, which is kind of a travel audiobook about exploring different neighborhoods in NYC. But they use ambient sound -- very high production quality -- and they worked with The Kitchen Sisters to do a SoundWalk of Ground Zero. SoundWalk is a good example of something that has lots of public radio production quality but wouldn't find a home on public radio and that does better at Audible.

Maureen Jackson: Yeah, SoundWalk sounds similar to what Antenna Audio offers at museums. Cool -- thanks for the picks.

Geo Beach: Now's the time -- if you have a pertinent thought, or final questions for Jake Shapiro or Kerry Donahue, don't forever hold your peace.

Jake Shapiro: And don't forever hold your PIECE.

Geo Beach: Thanks, Jake!

Jake Shapiro: So even if your piece hasn't been licensed yet by a station, perhaps it will find a home through Audible.

Kerry Donahue: Also, I'm going to jump in and say that for folks who have never used Audible and aren't psyched about paying for content, Audible is offering some free content these days.

Maureen Jackson: What content qualifies for free? How do you determine free content? Does the producer opt for this?

Kerry Donahue: Audible offered unedited audio of the 9-11 commission hearings, the DNC and RNC speeches, etc. Free content is still kind of rare -- it's something we are trying out more and more and it's really dependent on the provider to give the OK.

Dan Hirschi: What was the lag time from the live audio to when it was available? I see something to compete with public radio's tradition of airing long hearings live.

Kerry Donahue: We don't do live audio -- we post after the event, but it's a good way to catch up on something you might have missed and be able to download to a device and take in the car, etc.

Dan Hirschi: How long from the event to when its available on Audible?

Kerry Donahue: Depends on length of event -- if short, same day. If long, possibly next day. We worked long hours to get RNC and DNC up the same night Just wanted to make sure you all know you can go dip your toes in the Audible waters and try out the service.

Jake Shapiro: We will be posting more info about the Audible & PRX deal in the coming weeks, btw.

Geo Beach: As we draw to a close, I'd like to thank you all for joining us at AIR's Member Spotlight, public radio's monthly online forum. I think this is the most broadly-participatory forum yet -- most every person in the room had something to contribute. That's fantastic.

I'd especially like to thank Kerry Donahue and Jake Shapiro for stepping into the Spotlight tonight, and for bringing innovative energy to 21st Century audio.

In our Third Season of Spotlight now we're introducing some more Hosts to our team, and two of them have been in the room tonight: Jonathan Mitchell and Aaron Ximm.

Jonathan, can you tell us what you have in store for February's 2nd Tuesday?

Jonathan Mitchell: Thanks, Geo. Next month, I'll be hosting the AIR Member Spotlight when our Guest will be Jad Abumrad, host and producer of WNYC's RadioLab. A series of new RadioLab shows are scheduled to run at the beginning of February, and each show promises to take the listener on a "sonic joyride through the universe".

Join us in cyberspace on February 8th from 8:00-10:00 EST (5:00-7:00 PST, 6:00-8:00 MT) to learn about Jad's work with Radio Lab. Bring your questions to the table, and be prepared to explore the chemistry that occurs when storytelling and documentary making meet the sound laboratory.

Jake Shapiro: Jad's pieces were #4 and #6 on the PRX Top-15 for 2004, btw.

Brendan Greeley: Link to Jad's work here: http://www.PRX.org/for_stations.do?articleId=36

Geo Beach: Thank you, former Spotlight Guest and now-Host, Jonathan Mitchell.

Please check out http://www.Audible.com/ to find out more about Kerry's projects.

And http://www.PRX.org/ to learn more about the Public Radio eXchange.

Thanks to AIR's Josef Verbanac for webbing us together tonight, and always.

Dolores Brandon: Thanks ALL.

Kerry Donahue: Thank you everyone! I hope everyone will share our excitement about this new relationship between PRX and Audible.

Jessica Lockhart: Thanks for the good discussion! Over and out from Maine.

Matthew D. Payne: Thanks so much to Geo for getting a great forum together during the busy holiday season. And to Josef for keeping us running. And to PRX and Audible!

Jake Shapiro: Thanks, and feel free to drop a line with any more questions & comments: jake@PRX.org

Kerry Donahue: Yes -- you can email me at kdonahue@Audible.com

Geo Beach: We'll have a transcript of this forum at the airmedia.org website tomorrow. Check it out -- and email the link to your colleagues who weren't able to attend in "realtime".

Matthew D. Payne: They can attend in "My Time".

Geo Beach: Precisely.

Maureen Jackson: Maybe they're trapped in time?

Jake Shapiro: Here's to many a playlist of Indie work on iPods worldwide!

Geo Beach: Thanks to all. This is a wonderful, creative, far-flung community. All the time.