Member Spotlight Transcript featuring Torey Malatia
September 09, 2003

Geo Beach: Hello, and welcome to the twelfth edition of AIR's Member Spotlight webchat.

Our guest this evening is Torey Malatia.

And I'm your host, Geo Beach.

We have some background information about Torey on the AIR website:
http://www.airmedia.org/spotlight/bios/torey_malatia.html

The transcript of this webchat will be available on the AIR website at: http://www.airmedia.org/spotlight/archive.php, so your questions and ideas will have lasting value to AIR members and others in the public radio community who aren’t able to join us tonight.

Now please join me in welcoming Torey!

Dolores Brandon: Welcome, Torey!!!

Torey Malatia: Thank you. We'll be right back after this word.

Geo Beach: Thanks, Torey. And thanks, friends, for joining us in the AIR Spotlight tonight.

I'd like to start things rolling with the first question.

Torey, you're always willing to say something controversial or counterintuitive. People's initial reaction might be defensive, until they start thinking.

In your Letter from the President to WBEZ listeners, "Bottled at the Source" (http://wbez.org/about/letter.asp) you write:

"Public radio enjoys even less credibility [than commercial radio] in the area of individuality and local service -- one of the sad facts of our history. Throughout the heart of the twentieth century, commercial stations provided stunningly individualized service to their cities, while public radio... was considered something of an embarrassment...

"Ironically, on the whole, public radio stations in the last quarter of the twentieth century had less contact with their communities, and were less attentive to distinctive, local production than their commercial counterparts. During this time, in the arena of local public service, commercial radio trumped public radio."

Torey, can you talk a little about local service and sense of community in the public radio business?

Torey Malatia: Yes. The little article you mention was an attempt to explain to our listeners that we were recommitting ourselves to them, as we felt many other public radio stations, especially those in big markets, were beginning to. Certainly many stations have ALWAY been close to their communities -- KCRW for example, and WORT, WEFT, WFMU -- but not us, anyway.

Public radio was created so that every community could have a voice -- it is our prime directive. We can't forget it

Certainly bringing in great programming from around the world is part of that -- but it's never all of the task.

Geo Beach: Does it make a difference -- do folks in a big city like Chicago care about the idea of community?

Torey Malatia: Sure -- but the big AM stations gave them that -- WGN, WBBM, WMAQ, WLS. Every community had its local commercial broadcaster providing a link and identity. Corporate consolidation ends that slowly but surely, and we are left with the sole mandate.

Geo Beach: Dolores has a thought, Torey.

Dolores Brandon: This topic comes up over and over in the CPB panels. Have you seen the latest priorities?

It always seems the issue of localism gets trumped by core values.

Torey Malatia: First of all -- localism is a bad word -- a great concept -- a bad word. It sounds cheap and second tier. But the democratic distribution of a radio station's service throughout a community has always been a key core value.

And while CPB's discussion about public radio's own consolidation being somewhat desirable is a concern in one sense, in another it needn't be antithetical to what I mean by a responsibility to serve a community locally. We CAN do that together -- regionally, and in cities and towns where our resources can be shared.

But nationalizing the service is antithetical to its purpose. National content is not, but nationalizing control is.

Geo Beach: I'd like to open the floor to questions.

Barrett Golding: You've been quoted expressing disdain for pubradio's over-reliance on research. I'm guessing though you still think it's a valuable tool. How do you incorporate listener data into decisions at WBEZ?

Geo Beach: Good question, Barrett. What do you think, Torey?

And while Torey types, here's some of the quotes Barrett referred to:

In a New York Times article about the effect of audience research on public radio programming Torey said,

"There's nothing fundamentally wrong with research," said Torey Malatia, the president and general manager of WBEZ in Chicago, the station that originated "This American Life," the acclaimed documentary series featuring Ira Glass.

"But what happened in the commercial marketplace began to happen in the public-radio marketplace. There was this unarticulated but passionately held belief that there was a perfect formula and that if we used that formula in our community, we could be as successful as other communities that used it.

"But after believing that myself for a long time, I'd argue that public radio is at its most successful when it doesn't follow formula. Data is just one tool for ascertaining what works.

"And it's a shame that public radio is scared away from what doesn't show well in the Arbitron book or hasn't proven itself somewhere else or isn't understandable on first hearing."

That was Torey in the NYTimes piece on that other Gio.

Torey Malatia: Barrett, I have no disdain for research -- I suppose I have some disdain for laziness -- which is what I think programming based solely on ratings can be called.

Ratings are a necessary tool -- in fact we need BETTER ratings -- a truly reliable, scientific system to see what is really happening to our listeners. But what we have cannot be parsed to atoms without distorting our understanding of what audiences do -- and it cannot help us really answer the question of how deep they feel our service is.

We try to temper ratings and qualitative research with interactive surveys and audience interaction (unscientific) over a LONG timeline. This leads to better insight into what works and what is merely an initial reaction.

Geo Beach: So, the bottom line is an actual HUMAN willing to make a decision?

Torey Malatia: And willing to change it when it obviously fails.

Geo Beach: More questions?

Allan Coukell: Torey, do you actively pursue demographics? Younger listeners or black listeners, for instance?

Torey Malatia: In a sense, yes. Our bird's eye view is that we want an audience that looks like Chicago, to paraphrase Mr. Clinton. We know it will never be exactly a demographic mirror of the real population, but we should be relevant to as much of our community as possible.

Geo Beach: Torey, tell us about your conversion on the road to Damascus. Or was it the road to Decatur?

What made you brave enough to give up the numbers for the better sounds for your city?

Torey Malatia: It was almost Denmark.

Geo Beach: How do you generate programming like Odyssey, Eight Forty-Eight, Chicago Matters, and Speaking of Sex?

Torey Malatia: First of all, this was a fine radio station when I got here. Johanna Zorn was here, Jerome McDonnell, and yes, even this guy Ira Glass, who with Gary Covino did a weird Friday show.

My job was to make it better. But that I did not do -- in fact, I did the inverse. I changed just about everything -- because everything seemed too loose, too sloppy, too disconnected -- nothing like "flow" anywhere! We'd NEVER win a FLO award like this!

So I completely shifted the schedule -- invented logic, peace, and predictability. And I found myself bored stiff -- as a listener! The ONLY thing I liked was Wild Room (which I had merely moved, not changed).

And so, one day, after being beaten by my own system, Ira and I began to talk about radio -- and he changed my views entirely over time.

Geo Beach: What makes you brave enough to admit all this? I mean, everyone of us -- administrators, producers -- can learn from our mistakes, but is that just your character to be willing to challenge yourself like that, or what?

Torey Malatia: Because the very principles I applied are being applied all over the country. They are not bad principles -- but as I did, they are being applied without any sense of working from the mission UP. They are imposed.

Barrett Golding: Something that's always bothered me -- pubradio gets its ratings from analyzing Arbitron data. Arbitron does not track pubradio listeners, but information about those listeners can be gleaned by going to the diaries. This is how pubradio gets its data.

But, in my mind, the problem comes when they go on to further analyze the hell outta just this small skewed sector of pubradio listeners found in the diaries. While the info may be interesting, don't the stats fall apart when you try to force this too-tiny sample into providing accurate data? Aren't programmers making decisions on data that's tainted? I know this is a bit of a stat-geek question, but I thought you may have run into this before.

It has been my observation not that we pubradioers rely too much on numbers, just that we have been fooled into thinking the numbers we have are statistically valid, and then we have been making programming decisions based on these faulty assumptions. OK, I'm climbing off my high horse to hear your response (if any of above makes sense).

Geo Beach: Torey, does that question make sense enough for you to hazard an answer?

Torey Malatia: Yes.

Starting simply: Radio is a performing art -- like theater, dance etc. Even radio journalism crosses to art (Edward R. Murrow fans know this well). As such, we need to know what is happening in the receptors' ears -- the audience's response is key to us adjusting what we do artistically. That's why we need data.

Now what kind of data is ideal? If the audience could be seen -- as they are in a theater -- we could watch them shifting in their seats, dazed, amused, walking out.

We can't do that with radio -- although we COULD. A member of our board works for McDonald's (hang on, friends -- this is interesting, I promise) and McDonald’s does it's research the RIGHT way. They videotape people in the restaurants -- customers. Where they stand, what they order, what they look like when they taste the secret sauce.

I know -- I don't want to sell hamburgers either -- but my point is that unlike us, McDonald's can see what HAPPENS. We can't. We don't know if a documentary is capturing people's attention and moving them to tears or anger or laughter. BUT WE NEED TO KNOW!

Arbitron can't do this and, as you've pointed out -- actually does it badly.

Barrett Golding: What do they look like when they taste the secret sauce? -- In situ statistics.

Geo Beach: "Audience interaction over a LONG timeline"?

"And be willing to change it when it obviously fails."?

Just about to tip into the second hour of our dozenth AIR Spotlight. And tonight we've got the insight and candor of Torey Malatia, gm of Chicago Public Radio.

D. L. Thomas: Radio has the ability to "see" part of the audience now with a community that speaks via the internet. But for the most part pubradio and all media uses it a one-way medium, like a billboard rather than a conduit for dialog and interaction. The internet seems like a better place to sample and extend community dialog.

Geo Beach: Torey, it sounds like D.L. is curious what you think of using the internet to gauge your audience's feelings.

Torey Malatia: We use it, and hope to use it more. We currently offer periodic surveys that are designed and compiled by our advisory council. And we hope to develop a survey feature on our audio stream to sample reaction to ongoing listening with pop-ups or something like that.

D. L. Thomas: Torey, has WBEZ ever created an integrated on-air and online program? Something entertaining and stimulating for air that gives the audience an online environment to extend their on-air experience?

Torey Malatia: No -- nothing sustained that uses the web and the air, but we've run specials that way. We are remiss.

Geo Beach: There seem always to be new technologies to employ, but at root there's a philosophical difference between didactic programmers and something more creative, more integrated WITH listeners.

We're open to questions for our guest Torey Malatia.

Barrett Golding: PubTV often has consortiums of large stations that undertake projects. KQED, WGBH, WNET may combine efforts on a major series, for instance. We don't see that in radio. Insights?

Torey Malatia: Well, I think we do see some collaborative efforts in production, and probably will see more. But unlike television, radio stations -- even big ones -- are not geared for projects like this.

Our stables of station-based talent are limited in size, overburdened and underpaid -- and we don't have mad money to throw at projects outside of the ordinary.

This is why we have relied so much on a couple of major centralized producers. But times are changing. A programming development fund is an important aspect of our next capital campaign, for example -- as its true of WNYC, and in time more stations will be investing in collaborative and commissioned projects.

D. L. Thomas: My reference here is the Sound Portraits on All Things Considered a few years ago. I would have enjoyed a corresponding online editorial to peruse -- the combined on-air and online environment would allow you to "know" or "see" your audience.

Geo Beach: Speaking of "collaborative" projects, Torey, does the Public Radio Collaboration provide something of an answer to both Barrett's and D.L.'s questions, in that it pools something like eight major stations’ resources and has a very integrated approach to the type of web build-outs D.L. was talking about?

Torey Malatia: I don't know about D.L's interactive question, and in some respects the Public Radio Collaboration is a different step forward than the television model of jointly-produced products. But it is an important change in how we do business and will invariably lead us in a new -- and better -- direction than our past passivity in production.

Geo Beach: I'd like to invite questions from folks who haven't had a chance to speak up yet.

I know this is a busy time for many producers heading to PRPD. Some of our members are actually logging in having just arrived in Phoenix.

Well, let me bounce the ball into another court...

WBEZ was the producing station for David Isay's "Ghetto Life 101". David is one of the real leaders in radio's documentary movement, and Ghetto Life 101 is considered a seminal piece of programming.

Documentary is gaining momentum, but it has had to overcome a fad of early-90s program directors that "sound is everything".

On the other hand, you've said:

"A basic assumption over the last 25 years of radio is that people have short attention spans, yet very good radio storytelling actually lengthens the attention span. People find themselves listening for 20 minutes and they think it's been two. The use of the human voice, and all of its subtle expression, is hypnotic at times."

Torey, tell us some of your thoughts on storytelling a la This American Life, documentary, and the Third Coast International Audio Festival (http://www.thirdcoastfestival.org/index.html).

Torey Malatia: The reason this kind of storytelling is so successful is that it is seminal. It's like the sensation you get when you want your back scratched and your partner is scratching everywhere but the right area -- and then THAT'S IT! Radio storytelling is central to what we desire from the companionship, the intimacy, that IS the medium.

The documentary forms that so often excellently recorded events and concepts -- before those historical, news-based documentaries that the form became stereotyped as being altogether -- they did their good work (and still do), through the mind.

Our stories, sound-pieces, and picaresque travelogues do something very different -- equally valid, I think -- and hit the spot: the desire we have to be moved into another place, someone else's life, feelings and experience.

It's radio, babe.

Geo Beach: Matt Payne has a broader question for you. Matt, please go ahead.

Matthew Payne: Trying to get hold of PDs, GMs, and the like is an almost impossible task. How is it that we can improve the flow of information and create a better connection between Indies and programmers & management?

Torey Malatia: Well, soon there's PRX! It will help immensely, because it will narrow the pool to programmers who are looking for ideas.

But in the short run there's a couple of other things to keep in mind –-

You want audience, so don't limit yourself to "choice" stations. Pay attention to stations in the market that don't get a lot of calls but reach the same market.

And throw the word "innovation" in a lot. I actually love this word and I hate seeing it being debased, but programmers are going to conferences crowing about innovation and how much they revere it (when they may have done nothing original in their careers), so challenge them. Say, YOU (program person) -- you have publicly stated you like innovate new fresh work. Give this a listen. It's what will keep you on the cutting edge.

It's the 2003 form of flattery.

Geo Beach: That's the kind of candor we've come to know and love from ya, Torey!

You mentioned PRX. And Barrett has a question on the topic.

Barrett Golding: WBEZ continually improves pubradio in many ways, and I'll wager in no small part due to your efforts: TAL, ChiMatters, 3rdCoastFest, without any of which pubradio would be far less than it is. Thanks!

You just mentioned another innovation: PRX, and I see some PRXers here in our chat. What do you think of this right-coast scheme?

Torey Malatia: Full disclosure -- I love it. I'm on the SRG board. I'm a charter subscriber. AND I hope it becomes the tool that allows us to breathe clean public radio air again.

Much of our reluctance to try new things comes from the fear of public ridicule – What? You bought that INDEPENDENT'S work?! YOU LOSER!

But PRX and technology like it puts the programmer and the producer together with only the work as an issue between them -- no colleagues, no articles or formulas -- just radio. It succeeds or fails on its own.

Geo Beach: Well, I hope your examples at WBEZ show other GMs and PDs that taking chances MIGHT lead to failure, but that continuing to do the same tired decades-old thing ad nauseum is SURE to fail.

Geo Beach: Into our last half-hour -- questions for Torey?

Torey Malatia: Geo.

Geo Beach: Torey.

Do you want to pontificate? Or should I ask you an actual question?

Torey Malatia: I look funny in these robes, Geo.

Geo Beach: I kiss your CD, your Eminence.

Torey Malatia: A word about failure since you singled it out, if I may.

Geo Beach: Please, talk about failure!

Torey Malatia: I just met with the director of Chicago's Second City, the improv group that brought us Mike Meyers, Bill Murray, Jim Belushi, and so on. And he reminded me of something that I always find helpful. That is that artistic freedom exists in name only unless it's the freedom to fail.

So the first point here is that managers need to watch a wreck coming a mile away and let it happen. And that's rare.

But the second is this -- failure is not a state, it is a measurement -- an evaluation. So failure implies measuring, and adjusting, and correcting as a result of failure. Which brings us back to ratings -- and audience reaction -- and accountability to that audience.

So we are free insofar as we pursue excellence for the audience -- that's what I learned from him today.

Barrett Golding: Bucky Fuller says when you succeed you learn nothing: what you thought would happen, did. When you fail, though, you gain knowledge -- the essence of progress.

Geo Beach: That's a less threatening way for many execs to view failure, I'd hope.

Torey, Dmae has a question.

Dmae Roberts: Torey do you have an example of a recent independent work that WBEZ ran, and can you talk about why you took it and how you measured its success?

Torey Malatia: Dmae, these days there's not much we do that is with truly independent independents. By that I mean, we are so connected with independents that we often commission the pieces in question, or even help edit and co-producer them.

But I suppose I can mention "Stories of Home," and "Love Stories," which we commissioned from Alex Kotlowitz and Amy Dorn. These were part of our annual themed series called "Chicago Matters." The "Home" stories were aired last year as a human face on the housing series we were doing (which won a Peabody), and the "Love Stories" was part of our "Speaking of Sex” series this year.

In both cases, Alex and Amy found people who had radically different experiences about the topic -- sometimes surprisingly simple experiences -- and had them tell their stories. My favorite was "Love Stories” this year, and Alex and Amy will be doing a series on Money next year.

Oops -- the rest of your question -- Measurement in this case was highly anecdotal (ratings will not measure short pieces), and largely audience reaction.

Geo Beach: Torey, D.L. has a question about Indies and money and stations.

D. L. Thomas: Do producers ever bring a program with underwriter funds that are distributed directly to the station?

Torey Malatia: No. If that is how it is shaping up (if that's the only way the money can be distributed) then we rewrite the grant proposal as a station proposal, get the money and pay the producer. We try to be as direct and simple about the payment stream as possible.

Geo Beach: A little less than 10 minutes left, and I know several folks here -- including Torey -- have early flights to PRPD. So we wanna wrap promptly on the hour.

Question from anyone who hasn't had a chance?

Well, then I'll go.

Torey, I know even though you already have your Master's degree you're doing further post-grad work at Toronto's Centre for Medieval Studies.

So -- did you brainstorm with Ira on that "Jousting Newscasters" fundraising shtick?

Torey Malatia: Ira did that on his own, and then asked me to listen to it before it aired to see if the medieval expert who was the guest knew what he was talking about. Of course he knew gobs more than I did, so what I found funny about that piece was our ongoing joke at the end of the show that I'm the last person in the world you'd ever want to check anything with.

Geo Beach: You're modest, Torey. We've been delighted to check with you tonight!

As we draw to a close, I'd like to thank you all for joining us at AIR's Member Spotlight webchat.

I'd especially like to thank Torey Malatia for his bravery and openness in the spotlight tonight, and for bringing innovation into public radio management. Please check out www.wbez.org to find out more about Torey's projects. That site has links to Chicago Matter, This American Life, Eight Forty-Eight, Odyssey, Third Coast International Audio Festival, and other things we've been discussing tonight.

Thanks also to AIR's Josef Verbanac for webbing us together.

If you missed our prior Spotlight chats, I encourage you to read through transcripts from Sandy Tolan, Sue Schardt, Michael Johnson, David Clements, Jonathan Mitchell, Bari Scott, and John Dinges, Allan Coukell, Sandra Rattley, Nancy Greenleese, and Jake Shapiro:
http://www.airmedia.org/spotlight/archive.php.

We actually had five of twelve Spotlights in the room tonight!

Don't forget to mark your calendar for next month, when host Sue Schardt will host a panel in the AIR Member Spotlight, to discuss radio right now. It's our First Anniversary Spotlight show, kind of an Open Mic thing, so -- since YOU are "radio right now", please be there. That's Tuesday October 14th 8-10pm ET.

And please, now in the last 60 seconds -- say Thanks to Torey.

Dolores Brandon: Thanks, Torey, for tonight and for ALL you do for radio!! Fascinating, forthright answers, much to chew on. And thanks, Geo!

Torey Malatia: Thank you, Geo, Dolores, and AIR for your great work!

Allan Coukell: Thanks all.

Matthew Payne: Thanks Torey. And thanks Geo!

Barrett Golding: Yes, many thanks for your works.

Nannette Drake Oldenbourg: Impressive work again, Geo

Geo Beach: Smooth sailing to Phoenix, Matt, Sue, Torey, et al. Whoever Al is. Jake and Steve signed on after their arrival at PRPD tonight -- a pretty good example of utilizing the everywhere-at-once web!

Torey, thank you so much. Just perfect. I'll miss you in Phoenix and I'll see you in Chicago.

Torey Malatia: Thanks, Geo.

Geo Beach: Off you go. Sail smooth. And our big thanks again!